This is the Simply Home Podcast - Ladies Who Build, a podcast for women by women.

This is Ashley Wainscott and Michelle Mullins.

After spending the last 10 years revolutionizing the construction industry and raising the bar of the contracting world.

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Welcome to season three, episode 24 of the Ladies Who Build podcast. Ashley and I are back in action to continue sharing some amazing juicy info about remodeling and all the different ins and outs to make it successful. So today we're talking about what to consider when remodeling a bathroom or building a bathroom. There are surprisingly a lot of ins and outs that you might not consider regarding functionality or design and plan. And so we're gonna jump into a little bit of those key factors you should be thinking about.

We're also going to talk about some materials you should think twice about, things you don't necessarily consider in your day-to-day usage of the bathroom, and then what you should know from a remodeler's perspective. So let's jump in.

Well said, Michelle.

Thanks. So we probably have remodeled what? A thousand bathrooms?

Oh, have to have. We've been in a lot of bathrooms in our lifetime.

A lot.

Not just for like, you know, bathroom reasons, but just hanging out in people's bathrooms and studying them from every angle.

Yeah, like, I mean, it's kind of fair to say that nothing really scares us now, you know? It's funny because people will apologize when we're walking through. It's like, oh, sorry for my mess. Sorry my towels are on the floor. It's like, oh, like we don't even notice those things. Like that is so nothing. So we've seen it all.

Yeah, yeah, this is lovely in comparison to a construction site. This is lovely. You're lovely. Your clothes, dirty clothes are lovely. Like it's all fine. It means.

Yeah, I don't mind your dirty clothes.

Not even fazed. So the first thing that we want to talk about when considering design and planning is shower glass. This is actually kind of a hot topic. I think a lot of people have opinions on shower glass.

Yeah, they really do.

You know? And I don't necessarily think, I feel like it all depends on the goal. So you know you'll have some clients that want to trap the steam and so their main focus is or the steam the heat from the shower and so their main goal is taking the shower glass from curb or floor to ceiling which we all know a piece of shower glass is a hefty pricey material, but then when you take it above the standard height and you go all the way to the ceiling, I mean it's kind of shocking how price, how extreme the price influx is.

Yeah, glass is so expensive.

Yeah, and especially when it's not a standard width or height and all of it's, I mean, we usually just all order custom pieces, but the crazier it gets custom-wise, the more expensive it gets.

Yeah, and like, okay, you were just talking about if you wanna go to the ceiling for glass and you wanna make it all enclosed. Like we've had some people that build a whole, like a wall, and then they just do a small door for entry, but then they want that to go to the ceiling. But you don't necessarily want that because you need like steam to escape, right? Like we don't wanna like suffocate in this hot shower. But also, yeah, I mean, every inch you go up with glass it's so expensive because it has to be so thick and they just, they don't mess around. There is no discounts with class. It just keeps going up and up.

No, and then when you're wanting low iron where you don't see the greenish tint on the glass.

Right.

Which if you have like a nice pretty white tile or something where a white tile is going to reflect the green and I feel like you're really going to see it. So it's worth considering the upgrade if that's going to bother you, but it just adds the cherry on top to your quote.

Right, I think that's a good thing, is some people will make the investment for it, and so it's like what's important to you to spend your money on in a bathroom, and if glass material is important to you, then so be it, more power to you, spend the money on it. But yes, it can, you know, there was like, you could get the reeded design where you can have kind of a fogged look, which is great. Again, all of that adds cost.

And so I think a good consideration is your height of your shower glass. Also, do you want a single panel or do you want a swinging door? On your glass, do you want a towel bar? Because maybe there's nowhere else to place a towel bar in your bathroom or a hook. You can add that, which is nice. Like you can make it look nice, but then of course, some people don't like that because then there's always gonna be a towel draped over it, so it kind of covers up the aesthetic of the shower. We've heard that a couple times. And then...

Where the functionality potentially trumps the design or vice versa?

Yeah, and it's like you're spending so much money on the beautiful design, you don't want to cover it up.

Yeah. But then I'm like, thinking about there have been bathrooms where, where clients have no place for the towel bar and it's across the room, you know, and I'm like, well, if you want to walk across the room, then I guess so be it.

Yeah.

No thank you, while you're all wet and dripping and whatever.

Yeah.

The towel bars was a good add. I forgot about the towel bars. And then the door swinging, I remember there were several times where you could get stuck in the shower, like depending on which way you put the hinges, right? You could get stuck either like by the toilet or in the shower. So you had to be very particular. And you would never think that you need a whole meeting just templating through the flow of it, but you do.

Right, and that's like one of the reasons we don't order glass ahead of time. Like that's one of the materials that doesn't get ordered ahead of time because once you're, first of all, they have to measure it once the tile is in because it's so exact. But that meeting will happen with the homeowners and your project manager on site. And so it's nice because they'll talk about, okay, let's talk about how you're gonna use it. Do you want it to go in? Where do you want it to go out? How far do you want it to go in? Is it gonna hit something?

Where do you want to go to grab your towel? Which side of the handles do you want it on? Okay, how many hinges are we gonna have? Do we have studs in the wall for the hinges? Like there's just so many things to really consider and so all of that's done at the time.

Yeah. And I don't think most people realize glass isn't ordered. It's not like a Home Depot piece of glass that we're ordering. It's a custom fitted piece of glass so that it looks exceptional with the rest of the bathroom. So yeah, you can't order it. And it's, when during COVID that became a real issue when we had, I mean, we were even having glass timeline delays as of last year where it was what they were. a few times with like certain brass color hardware that it was what?

Like weeks.

Six or 12 weeks or something?

Weeks, yeah, so long.

Which you order at the end of the project, so we're like, but there's nothing left to do.

Everybody's waiting for this glass. Yeah.

There's nothing left.

But I think, so transitioning into the next topic that kind of aligns with shower glass is also considering if you want your bathroom to be ADA compliant.

This is important if you have maybe like aging parents in the home or you know that like you yourself would like it for better ease and functionality and mobility because I mean, there are things that you'd have to consider. For example, you’re opening of your shower has to be a lot wider. Your actual interior shower space has to be different. You do need to have certain handrails on the walls throughout the bathroom and the shower. Your vanities have to be certain heights. So there's a lot of considerations. There's more to that, but there's so many considerations to think about like if someone was in a wheelchair or needed help being in the shower.

Like what does that space look like? Another thing too with that though, you can't have a curb.

Yes.

So if you were to have a shower curb, that's not ADA compliant.

I was just thinking about that with the curb. And then expanding, remember expanding all the doorways when we've worked on those projects?

Yeah.

For the wheelchair? We've had to expand all the doorways so that the wheelchairs can fit into the bathroom. Then they have space to move all around, space to get on the toilet, space to get in the shower and yeah. It's important if you are getting to that age or your parents are, then you definitely should consider all of those things when you're remodeling. Cause you don't want to remodel it again in a few years. You know?

No, thank you. But, to your topic, okay, so another consideration is the curb or the curbless. So I think curbless obviously is like way, it has a different aesthetic, it's a whole different feel, it's beautiful, it's great, but it does astronomically increase your cost, I guess, comparably if you were just doing a normal curb. Because the process is not let me just remodel the shower.

The process is now I have to demo out all of your bathroom flooring because all of the bathroom flooring has to be slightly sloped towards the shower drain. And we have learned from fun, not fun past projects, how this slightest slope, if it is not sloped enough, water will start to pool in certain parts of the shower. And so it's so imperative that it’s done correctly.

Michelle, how do you ensure it's done correctly?

Well, let me tell you all the times I've been on a floor of a shower with a large level, making sure that certain parts of the floor is level, certain parts are sloped. If you're doing a linear drain, where does that linear drain go? It needs to go up against a wall. And if you're doing not a linear drain, where does that circle drain go? There are so many things. Oh my gosh, I'm really getting kind of PTSD now thinking about them.

This is actually triggering. A change of topic. Well, and you wouldn't think when you're switching out a drain that it's not just how a designer thinks it should be laid out from a beauty standpoint. It's actually a functional, how is the water going to get to the drain properly?

Yeah, and a lot of times you might not know that until everything's put together and then you see water pooling. So that was a lesson learned, but we didn't do it again after that. I learned the hard way.

And even the tile you're picking to go on, you know, to go over the curbless shower when it's going from floor to shower in like that slope and how it slopes. I think that that's a big consideration.

Yeah, huge. So I think that's like, as you're considering, okay, do I want curbed, do I want curbless? Curbless is more timeless, I get that, and it's beautiful, but curbed showers can give you a better price obviously for labor. And then it's so much easier to slope a curbed shower because it's very simple. We're in this like small frame that we're working within.

Yeah and everybody's preference is curbless. Everybody starts off and we always say we can quote both. And then when they see the difference, usually people don't actually care that much. When you put dollars next to it.

Right.

Then they get a change of heart because unless it's necessary or just unless you have the budget for it, it's just sometimes not worth it.

But you kind of started talking about this too, Michelle, was the moving of the plumbing. Like whether you're doing, if you're moving plumbing to do a linear drain, obviously that's more expensive. Or if you're making a shower bigger and we need to move the drain, you're making it smaller, we have to move the drain. Any moving of plumbing, whether it's something simple like that, you have to think about we have to move the shower head so that it's center and the valves depending on where you put any valves.

But anytime we're moving any plumbing, whether it's in the shower, the toilet or the sinks, it's all a lot more money than just remodeling what's in place.

Right. And I think about moving wall plumbing is a little bit easier. I mean, it's easier because you're working within the studs. That's a little bit easier to work around. But when you're working with the drain plumbing, you could be the best designer in the world. You're not gonna know if a drain can go where you want it to go until you're getting into construction. Because what we've run into is like, okay, let's say it's on a first floor slab house. Well, there could be rebar running through your slab that we can't put a drain right there.

Or let's say you're on a second story and they cut into the subfloor to put your drain, there could be a truss running right there that we can't cut into. Or maybe there's another pipe running underneath here that funnels another bathroom that we're not gonna cut into. And so you could be dead center on your drain, but there are things that you can't really control. I mean, anything's possible with time and money, but you're not gonna pay to move this rebar in your concrete slab.

So then you have to consider, I mean there have been times where we considered doing like a centered shower circle drain and then we actually went to linear because there were so many things blocking the center drain that it kind of looked really funky. So then we ended up going to a linear drain which is at the top of the shower.

Yeah, that's when you're like, a center drain is not in your future.

Yeah, this house was not made for a center drain.

No, this was not meant to be. It's not for you. Let's dump that idea and move on. I mean, which also helps when clients can be designers, I feel like for the most part I understand. But when clients can be understanding and remain flexible throughout the process, because sometimes there's just nothing you can do unless you wanna shell out a lot of money.

Right.

It's like, why don't you just redo a different bathroom with all that money?

Yeah.

We also had talking about, this is kind of tying in to talking about the different types of toilets. I Feel like we were seeing an uptick of bidets and like bidet purchases, especially with specifically here in Austin, but in other places I think in the US they're also experiencing drought and other water issues and buying something like a bidet is supposed to help that, right? It'd be more environmentally friendly and even buying low flow toilets. But the thing is, is we have to plan for bidets. So just consider that when you're in the planning and development phase, you have to plan for them. They generally require, they usually require electricity.

So we have to plan for that. And it's around water. So it has to be in a very specific location. It has to be specifically done versus installing a standard toilet. I am going to say that during the freeze, I think a lot of people learned how much water a toilet uses. Like people would during snowmageddon or during any of the freezes when water was shut off or things were happening and you had to actually put water down your toilet to flush it and it was kind of astounding how much water was needed.

I know. I didn't realize. And then I mean what you said. And I'm thinking of all the times I flushed and how much water we're wasting. And it's like clean, you know, clean water, right?

Yeah.

Like it’s not.

It's not dirty. I mean, it doesn't look dirty.

That's a whole other rant. Yeah.

I know. Isn’t that nuts?

Yeah, that's a really good point. I think along the lines of toilets though, that's probably the most expensive thing to move if I'm actually thinking about it. Like there have been bathrooms we've gone into that we've completely rerouted all of the plumbing, vanity, shower, toilet, and we put them all in different places throughout the bathroom. That is the most expensive by far, is to do a toilet drain line, I think, because it ties into the rest of the house. It's large piping, you have to trench pretty deep to get it buried.

It's true, and then you have to consider the flange and all the, all the work required to get that ready.

Yeah, it's a lot. But I think wherever you decide to put your toilet, if you're like, I've made up my mind, it's going across the room, great. That's great. But then you also wanna consider the privacy around it. So like maybe before you had it open and you maybe liked that, or maybe you had it in a separate own little room and maybe you didn't like it or you liked it. But those are all the kind of things you have to consider because thinking about resale too, people prefer to have a toilet space like its own little space, whether it's like maybe between two walls, maybe it has an actual door that you go into and use. Sometimes you can separate a toilet and a shower with a pony wall.

There's so many different ways to do it, but I think for resale value, you do want some sort of separation with that. But then, you also have to consider, then you have to bring, let's say it's in its own room with a door, now you have to bring electricity into that room, and you have to bring a whole vent into that room. So these are just things you're adding on, as it were, as if it was just out normally in the bathroom, you would only have one bathroom vent. You wouldn't need two. Right? So.

I was just thinking about why would you need to bring electricity in the bathroom? I was like, why would you bring electricity? And then I was like, oh, like, like you might be sitting in the dark.

Yeah, but that's something to think about. You're like, oh, during the day it's fine.

Right.

I can see in here, but not at noon.

Yeah, and not if you want to close that door.

Yeah, good luck. So, you know, what's the point of the door if you can't have light?

You have like a little $5 puck light that you turn on the wall. Michelle, great point. You do need electricity in that room and a vent fan. Both are necessary.

And a vent fan. I think too with a toilet, like if we're talking about doors in a bathroom, you really want to be careful of what route you're going to. So a lot of people do pocket doors to save on space, right? So you're not having to like swing into the shower, you're not having to speak into the bedroom. I love a pocket door, I want a pocket door in our bathroom, but you also have to consider can you install it?

Because pocket door has framing that has to go into the wall and if you are putting a pocket door that has electricity on it, or maybe you're putting a pocket door that backs up to your shower, well now you're compromising your shower framing wall because it really needs the weight of the tile and the weight of the hardiebacker needs to be really up against studs on a wall. And so if you take those out and you're putting a pocket door framing, we've done it, it's fine, but it does, it can over time, like if you have a heavy tile it can over time compromise the wall. So that would be something to consider. And then if there's electricity, you have to move the electricity to put your pocket door in.

Yeah.

So that's an added cost.

And you do need to double the space, like whatever the door is while it's filling in the frame in the actual doorway, you need that space and then some for the actual framing of the door so it can sit in the wall. And the wall is definitely not as sturdy, right? Like you and I have seen and felt the wall and it's not as sturdy and then it's not as insulated either, right?

It just doesn't feel as strong. So if it's a pocket door for a room that's connected like a common space, I really wouldn't advise that because it doesn't give you any privacy whatsoever. That like, it's just things aren't as insulated. The actual door isn't as insulated. Guess you could get like a solid wood door, but it's just not as insulated as like closing a door and all of the privacy and noise and everything's locked in versus a pocket door and even a barn door, Michelle. When that was really popular with bathrooms, I mean, I'm still in shock. I'm like, this is not functional.

No, it's not. And you can hear everything. I stayed in an Airbnb recently and they had barn doors entering their bathroom on both sides, like from the hallway and the bedroom.

No.

And you might as well just been hanging out with your friend that was going to the bathroom in there because there was no sound. I mean, there's just no sound. It's just like basically an extension of the wall that's not closed in.

Yeah, there's no question what is happening in that bathroom. Like, you know if they're peeing, you know, you know exactly what's happening.

Yeah, we heard it.

That's when you channel Alexa. You're like, Alexa, turn on loud.

Yeah, well yeah and I think again I love pocket doors. They save space. It really bothers me when doors like open into a bathroom and you're like excuse me let me shuffle around this door. So I'm all for a pocket door but the biggest thing is just the functionality and where the pocket door framing is going to go and like your contractor can walk you through that. Like they're going to know what makes sense and what can't what doesn't. But yeah you'll just, you'll want to be careful about like, is this the best investment because you're right. It's not just the opening you're covering, you're also covering the space in the wall and then that's drywall and then that's painting and then that's reinstalling the trim so there's a lot of factors.

Yeah, how do you guys think the framing gets in the wall? We have to open up the wall and put it all in there and then patch it back up.

Yeah. Shove it in.

Like it didn't happen. Yeah, pocket doors are the best and you should, don't say we didn't tell you so. If you're in this situation, we're just giving you a little warning.

Yeah.

Michelle, you mentioned earlier a good point about double sinks that I think you should talk about and what people should consider in their bathroom for double versus single.

Yeah, you know, we have a lot of people that come to us, like that want to install double sinks. We do it all the time. It's no big deal. I think I have a double sink in my bathroom, but what I would suggest is no. Because in all honesty, how many times are you and your, your partner, brushing your teeth at the same time washing your hands at the same time, getting ready for bed at the same time, maybe you are and that's great, but like the three minutes that you need in front of the sink to brush your teeth, you know what I mean?

Is it worth the whole added expense to add new plumbing, add a connection for a faucet, add a whole vanity? Like is it worth it? In my opinion, no, because you don't find yourself in the bathroom majority of the time with your partner. And if you do, like it's no big deal. You don't need an additional sink for it, right?

And again, some people love it, it's great. I think, but along these lines, if you're doing two separate vanities, like maybe you have a vanity on this wall and you have a vanity on this wall, I think that can be functionally nice because if you have the space for it, like this could be his and hers side, I think that's really pretty. But if you have a full wall with a double vanity, it's just not worth the added expense. I mean, there's so many things you have to add for that. So I, what I would do is do like a nice full single vanity. And then do some really nice built-in shelves or really nice storage because you can't have enough storage in a bathroom. And so I would get creative with that space and not just throw a sink in it.

Yeah, I the one challenge I was thinking to this is if you have a partner or spouse that has a really, doesn't have the same cleaning habits as you, and they also have a lot of hair potentially on their face, and they're not as like clean as you and I mean either way it bothers me whether it's in my sink or their sink. But if you did have a partner that wasn't as considerate in that, then maybe that's worth it. But I agree, I mean, a lot of the times I'm not in the bathroom with my partner ever. And even when we are brushing our teeth, we're not like standing shoulder to shoulder brushing our teeth.

At the exact same time finishing at the exact same time? Like, no.

Yeah, then we're both trying to spit out the toothpaste at the same time? No.

Yeah. Like it’s happened once in my life.

Right, literally I think once I actually wondered the other day. It's like huh why don't we brush our teeth or like you know I think we specifically try not to be in the same bathroom at the same time and you do have more counter space when you don't have double sinks so if it's not plumbed already for that, then just rethink if you need to add a second sink. It’s all we're saying, just think about it.

Yeah, not worth it.

I also wanted to share on here my lesson learned with tile. And I highly advise not to pick something just because it looks really pretty on a picture because.

Is this what you do? How are you saying that?

Because it did look really pretty on a picture and it does look really pretty in my shower at my old house, but I picked a gorgeous white marble. Gorgeous, spent way too much money on it.

It is right.

You can vouch, it's really pretty. But then I picked a white grout to go with it and I was just so excited to pick out something for myself that I picked out the most unreasonable thing ever. Because clients pick out, they get to pick out towels all day. So I was like, oh, I'm just so excited to do this. So I picked out white marble, which you have to reseal at least every six months, if not every year, and then a white grout. And then I had, I ended up spending like every other day bleaching the shower lines in my shower while I'm showering. You know, you might as well like multitask.

Yeah.

And I'm thinking, what did I just do? Like, why did I do this to myself?

It's killer. How many times have we had to educate people on the grout colors that they choose and then also like to your same point the tile that you choose in a wet space. So I am all for marble. I love marble. I can live in marble. But it's hard to maintain in a wet space. Especially your shower. It's always wet. So it's naturally just going to soak in and that's fine. Marble is really porous, but over time it oxidizes. Over time it starts to turn colors because if you are not religious about sealing it and keeping it up to par with the conditions that it's in, then it's going to start to turn. And so then your beautiful white marble bathroom doesn't look the same as it did from day one that we built it.

There are so many alternatives these days, the material on the market that looks like tile, that are porcelain or some other material that doesn't have to be actual marble. But you know? But to each his own, we're not saying don't ever do it, but just know that it takes maintenance to keep it looking really spectacular.

Yeah, you just know it's a complicated shower now. It requires maintenance. Okay, so the other thing we wanted to talk about is natural lighting or lighting in general. If you want a window in your space, if you have a window, but with the changes in your bathroom, does it need to be a fogged window? Or does it need to be tinted? Does it need some sort of liner over it?

These are all great considerations. I don't feel like people consider their lighting in their bathroom enough. You know, we, I feel like we're always asking, is that enough lighting? Do you like your canned lights in here? Do you have enough vanity lights? Because Michelle and I were talking and I'm like, most of the time you're putting on your makeup, you're getting ready. So, but most people are probably putting makeup or like doing their hair and getting ready and I would always think about lighting. Always.

It's tough because you don't, then you don't want it to be like a blinding light where I've gone into bathrooms where it's like super, super bright and I'm like, whoa. But I would consider, you know, if you have a shower, I would put a canned light over your shower. If you have a separate toilet room, I would put a canned light in there. You could do your standard vanity sconces. But then beyond that, do you want more? Like, do you want canned lights in the actual bathroom ceiling in addition to your vanity sconces?

Like I say yes just because I like a lot of lighting, but some people actually really like dim, low lights in bathrooms because again, I mean you could put dimmers on it, but like the first thing in the morning do you need to be walking into like a blinding light bathroom?

No.

I do, but others don't.

I was like, no!

No, most people don't. I like to be woken up.

Clearly, yeah, you want the flashlight in your face.

So okay when you talk about windows, I'm thinking of experience in this regard. So we did a beautiful shower. She had this big beautiful window in her shower. It was like tinted or something. Anyway you couldn't look at it whatever. But obviously a window is shared with an exterior wall and the way that the design had her shower niche was also to go on that back wall. It was going to be really pretty, like beautiful accent tile in the shower niche but we really advised against it because a window is shared with an exterior wall, obviously the LR.

It already compromises the wall to some extent because you lose that framing wherever the window is. And so then of course you just frame around the window with headers to make sure that you're kind of double securing that support. But when you put a shower in it, you have to cut the framing of where it's going in the wall.

And you don't want to cut into, ideally you don't want to cut into an exterior wall and you certainly don't want to cut into a load-bearing wall. Because then you completely jeopardize the support of that stud. So you could have studs on either end but if you're cutting into the middle stud you might as well just take out that entire stud. I mean it's doing no purpose at that point. And so we always, and you would know, like if you're like oh my gosh I have no idea where my studs are in my shower. Well no one does until we demo, right?

And so at that point at demo, if there is a compromising position that your niche is in, we're already gonna tell you, we're gonna bring it up to you, we're gonna give you options, but you might wanna put it on a wall that is not load-bearing. And also, some people don't wanna see the shower niche because that's where they put all their shampoos and their soaps, like you kinda don't wanna look at it either, it can get kind of junky.

Yeah, a lot of people make it accenty and cute, but if you know your shower niche is not gonna be cute, then you can hide that puppy in a little pony wall or down low, especially when you know you have like big shampoo bottles and a bunch of stuff.

Yeah, I think the only thing would be like storage space. I think a lot of people when you're remodeling are like, I want to maximize my shower size. I want to maximize my vanity size. Those are all great, but really consider storage space. So I'm working in a really small bathroom right now, very small, and we're having to put like storage underneath the vanity, like open shelving, because there's nothing, there's nowhere to put towels.

There's barely any place to put like extra TP in there. It's very tight. So I would definitely consider like, maybe you do some floating shelves above the toilet, maybe even do like a cabinet above there. Maybe you do a medicine cabinet. There are some alternatives you can play to get creative with it, but definitely consider storage in your bathroom. You need it.

Oh yeah, and then medicine cabinets. You have to think about the venting from the plumbing. If you're going to put large medicine cabinets.

Oh, well that's a whole other thing. Yeah, so you're gonna refresh it? Are you gonna put it on the wall? Outside the wall?

Yeah, highly recommend on the sidewall where the plumbing is not, but just know that's going to be an added cost. So Michelle and I, that is everything. I know it's not everything, everything. But those are the big things Michelle and I thought you should always consider when you're diving into a bathroom remodel. And tips and tricks from things and experiences that we've learned the hard way or not hard way, we've just seen it all the time. So you're welcome.

Yeah, and just ask us. We have tons and tons and tons of stories.

We really do.

So if you're curious, we could tell you what the good, the bad, the ugly and what worked.

Yeah, I mean we could be about, around this campfire all day.

For sure. For sure. There's a lot.

Okay, well, we will see you all next time. We'll be talking about kitchens, so get excited.

Stay tuned.

Okay, ta ta!

Ta ta!